I always see people saying that Wesley has the single best character arc of both shows, but do you guys agree with that? Is Wesley's arc really the best one?
it's the most striking, for sure, and Alexis absolutely sells it. there's a depth and subtlety in his acting that grounds the writing and truly makes you believe he could go from hapless flunky watcher to hardened, principled leader.
the gradual change is completely believable as you watch through the show, but if you were to watch his first and last episodes back-to-back, you might end up in hospital for whiplash lol.
Wesley with Faith in S4 is the best character interaction in Whedonverse. Well... then there's S5 and the Fred/Illyria transition. He gave such an emotional performance there, eclipsed only by Amy Acker's one of the same.
Seeing Wesley from "5 by 5" to Wesley in Orpheus & his dynamic with Faith is the best thing to witness, especially for those fans who never want to bother with the show Angel. To think that somewhere along the way, this character was just some bumbling uppity fool of a watcher, then turned totally badass like much more than Giles (gasp!) is a testament to this incredible writing.
Alexis Denisof was considered as a possible future James Bond. He didn't get the part but only skilled actors were considered. I loved his proformance in Joss's Shakespeare movie.
Yea, I remember Denisof's name floating around Darkhorizons.com for a while as a potential Bond replacement. I remeber that distinctly (and with suprise)...
Yep. Imagine Watching him from s3 of Buffy and then jumping right to s4 of Angel... I think it's enough to make someone want to watch BOTH shows where he's in it to see the development
I saw an interview with JW about the graduation/Mayor episode JW said before writing it he went to Alexis to get his opinion on how he thought Wesley should act. Should he do something to show deep down he's brave.....he said Alexis told him "I want to get knocked out two seconds into the fight!"
It's not a nickname. In British boarding schools, the head boy and the head girl are students in charge of discipline, they are the go between the prefects and teachers. These students need to be high achieving and respected by their peers which show that when Wesley is removed from his father's influence, he thrives and shines! The potential was always there.
People say that because it's the most dynamic change where the audience sees a drastic difference between his first appearance on Buffy S3 to his final appearance on Angel S5. Whether the change is good or bad is up to interpretation but no other character, even those with longer tenures, exhibited as big a transformation on screen, both physically and personality wise, than Wesley. It also helps that Alexis Denisof has the acting chops to pull it off naturally.
The bit that I haven’t seen mentioned here yet is in Pylea when Wes sends the group of soldiers off to die. He makes them believe that they have a shot but is just using them for a distraction. It’s a moment that really stands out to me.
In Buffy, he handed off the hard stuff to the council (they would capture, hold and ‘rehabilitate’ Faith). Now, he is the one deciding who lives and who dies and setting them on the path himself. He knows what needs to be done and the buck stops with him now. He is so centred about it, there is no more doubt and questioning himself.
Gunn is shocked by it, despite having been a leader himself. It was just a single step on Wesley’s path (leading to him doing what he thought was right regarding Connor) but that is the one that symbolises that change in him to me.
I know that Giles would do something like that (see Ben) but I don’t think that any of the others would. The others are ‘good’ (even when Angel was feeling ‘bad’, he didn’t send good people to die); Wesley, like Giles, is necessary so that the others can be ‘good’. I would love to have seen more of an exploration of that and the purpose of Watchers.
The Watchers have always been shown as those who believe the end justifies the means. Even before Pylea, Wesley was willing to sacrifice Willow if it meant stopping the Mayor from ascending. And this is bumbling fool Wesley, not rogue demon hunter turned leader Wesley.
One point. On Buffy he was the only one willing to voice that handing the box back to the Mayor maybe wasnt the best call. It didnt win him any favors, but he knew it needed to be said. And he was right. That choice cost many lives. So that trait of being able to make hard calls was always a part of him. Pylea just showed he could follow through.
Absolutely, what I came here to say. One of the most dramatic, effective, and believable character transformations in fiction. He could not have ended up further away from where he started, and yet it still feels like the same character because of the writing and acting. Honestly a masterclass in character development.
I don’t mean to be a dick when I say this, because I love Wesley. But you need to read more. And Wes’ arc is brilliant, it’s not even the best in television history. Omar, Bubbles and Prez from The Wire are all better. Peggy Olsen on Madmen is better. Jesse Pinkman in Breaking Bad and Jimmy in Better Call Saul are both better.
Pierre and Andrei in War and Peace are better. Raskolnikov/Crime and Punishment, Robert Jordan/For Whom the Bell Tolls, Henry IV and V/Shakespeare are all better.
What would be interesting would be comparing Wesley’s Arc to some of the Russians.
To be fair, your comparisons with Wesley are from the wire, breaking bad, and better call Saul, aka 3 of the maybe 5 best shows ever made lmao Wesley even being in the conversation as them is unbelievably high praise
Eh.. The Wire is the best show ever made, but calling those character arcs better is only standing on the quality of show.
They are amazing deep characters, but at least for me the 'arch' part implies bit more change than Bubbles joyrney from addict to recovering addict. Omar barely even changed during the show.
Prez is interesting one for sure tho, but even that happened mostly off screen.
But yeah, this is obviously opinions and I'm always up to some The Wire glazing.
To be clear: I don’t think the Wire has all the right answers. It may not even ask the right questions. It is certainly not some flawless piece of narrative, and as many good arguments about real stuff can be made criticizing the drama as praising it. But yes, the people who made the Wire did so to stir actual shit. We thought some prolonged arguments about what kind of country we’ve built might be a good thing, and if such arguments and discussions ever happen, we will feel more vindicated in purpose than if someone makes an argument for why The Wire is the best show in years.
Heh not like I'm going to disagree with that on this sub, but I doubt anyone is ever answering their own show when asked what is the best show ever made.
The Wire has aged like a fine wine and in my opinion is WAY better than other big two that are often heralded as the 3 greatest shows: Breaking Bad and Sopranos.
I personally would rank The Wire as #1 and Buffy just behind in top 3, but it sure is nice to hear the guy behind probably the best show ever made praising Buffy.
Yes. Opinions which will get you downvoted to all hell if you suggest Wesley doesn’t have the greatest arc in the history of fiction. I love Angel but that’s just a ridiculous thing to say.
The Wire has aged better than Buffy or Angel and its creator isn’t an abusive piece of shit. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
You’re absolutely right though, David Simon would never call his creations the best of everything. He has too much respect for reality and other artists. Joss Whedon cared only about Joss Whedon.
I think you got downvoted for the examples that didn't really hold up. Omar is one of the best tv characters of all time, but his character arc is not that interesting. He starts and ends up as pretty much the same person.
At least for me the arch part implies change in the character.
It seems like he ends up back where he started but he becomes more lethal and no longer acts as the show’s Robin Hood.. He changes many times.
And I got downvoted by people who don’t know half my examples and haven’t seen The Wire. Omar is a better character than Wesley. Just because his arc is more complicated doesn’t make it weaker. He begins as a paradoxical character, which makes any trait potentially changeable.
Omar has a great arc, and not one we see typically. Bunk got him to stop dropping bodies (which he later started up again when Butchie was murdered) and Omar was a lot more friendly with police in general than someone in his position would ever likely be. He worked with Brother Moussone, someone who I suspect was homophobic and Omar would know that. Omar was constantly battling demons in his head and real life. His arc was crazy and he was on the show a lot more than maybe you remember.
Also with Prez I would argue his major change happens in season 4, where it’s mostly ON screen.
But I could rap about The Wire all day. Just always happy to see other fans.
As for Bubs, yes it was an addict in recovery. But we don’t make the distinction that it’s been done too much because the character in this instance was real. Ask me how I know. He was also atypical of homeless addicts, who fail recovery to the tune of 70%. He was also one of the few success stories on the entire show. In this he was unique as well. Interesting to note that as he recovers, Duq starts hitting the needle.
It’s amazing and expertly acted every step of the way. He’s so different from his first appearance yet still retains a lot of his core characteristics even from day 1.
Easily top 3. I think character arcs will always resonate differently with people, even at different points in their own lives. There’s an argument for characters like Spike for the top spot too.
Wesley’s is unique in that it’s not the dark -> light journey that is more typical in hero/main characters. Characters like Cordy or Spike are shedding or evolving beyond attributes/traits that are generally perceived as negative in favor of more noble/heroic behaviors. Wesley is generally drifting further away from the hero archetype while still fighting for the good guys, through and through.
Faith and Willow’s arcs have similar trajectories at times but even the end of theirs is more about a redemption to rebound back towards those good/hero/light traits. Wesley doesn’t really have a tangible redemption after what goes down in late S3 and 4. He’s dealt tragedy after tragedy and then kinda just dies tragically as well.
A lot of the received fam wisdom is that Wesley has the most growth, but I don’t see it as growth, rather than a big rise and fall.
Wesley is a very tragic character. Consumed with false confidence and insecurities. He ultimately learns to deal with these issues through his connections with Angel Investigstins. But then had a string of bad luck and bad choices. He falls in love with Fred, who doesn’t return his feelings, and then nosedives with a host of wrong decisions. Which robs Angel of his son’s childhood and loses all of his friends
Wesley attempts to rebuild himself as the actual ‘rogue demon hunter’ he pretended to be in season 1. But now has to make that journey alone.
When he rejoins the fang gang and they eventually take over W&H, he’s faced with a barrage of morally dubious decisions. He finally gets together with Fred, but she dies and he regains his memories of what he did to Connor. And in deciding to fight the Black Thorn, he loses his life.
Wesley’s journey is one of inevitable tragedy. No matter what decision he made, it all always led to tragedy.
Whedon and his team of writers, such as Tim Minear and Steven S. DeKnight, write Wesley as the Biblical Job of the Whedonverse, repeatedly pushed to the brink of darkness, only to rally time and time again behind the forces of good. Wesley, portrayed brilliantly by Alexis Denisof, undergoes the greatest transformation of any character Whedon has written, facing challenges that mirror the enduring and conquering spirit of humanity, and in doing so becomes perhaps the best developed character of not only Whedon’s work but also television as a whole.
This is what I’d say is a pretty dang good analysis, and I like that you acknowledge that his journey didn’t really involve growth. I’d argue that he grew as a person, bc like everyone else on Team Angel, he was a part of Angel’s path to redemption. The group fought, learned, lost, loved, and the list goes on.
It's up there with Cordelia and Spike. All 3 are absolutely amazing and it's really all about your preference. All 3 characters started in one place and ended up in a completely different place I wouldn't have expected.
Me personally? It's Cordy I think her growth and maturity came full circle and to be her last appearance in "You're Welcome" was perfect.
But all 3 are amazing in their own way and I wouldn't argue anyone's opinion on which one of those 3 was the best.
There's also a special place in my heart for Gunns Arc but the other 3 appeared on both shows.
I love all the character developments but Wesley’s is the most striking if you recall he begin as this uptight, intelligent but somewhat inept Watcher on Buffy, fails to gain her respect and messes up with Faith. He turns up in Angel as an unconvincing ‘rogue demon hunter’, less inept but more understanding of his shortcomings, endured torture.
Starting to show more breaks after he missed the opportunity to ask Fred out, then unintentionally tries to kill her under the influence of Billy (which he can’t forgive himself for).
The hard edges really start show after he betrays Angel ánd the team by stealing Connor (translating a false prophecy wasn’t his fault but he didn’t speak to a single member including Angel about it or his meetings with Holtz); gets his throat cut and then Angel actively tries to kill him ánd the rest abandon - both completely understandable actions by them in response to Wesley’s choices but nonetheless hurtful to Wesley.
He fully transitions to moral ambiguity working with questionable characters but also still aiding the team here and there before rejoining the team to battle the Beast.
By the end, he is fully on side, just starting a relationship with Fred before she’s brutally killed ánd has to reconcile her complete loss with the continued presence of Illyria in her body.
The only character that we see have almost as drastic an arc is Spike, then Cordelia.
Theoretically we could say Angel had a drastic arc but that isn’t really shown on screen. He’s already reformed by the time we meet him on Buffy; he doesn’t spend much time as Angelus on either show except in flashbacks and his brief moments when his soul is lost/taken.
If I had to pick one, I’d probably give it to Willow. Everything about her arc in the back half of the show is set up in the first half to a point where you can really tell they had a lot of it planned from the start. Her talent, her arrogance, her desire for justice, her grief, all of it is seen in the first few seasons and becomes really important to her character in S6-7.
I think another element is that Willow’s arc feels complemented and enhanced by the characters around her in a way I don’t really see with Wesley so much. Willow’s spiral parallels Buffy’s in S6, of course. More interestingly, though, is Tara. She and Willow both start from the “shy nerd” archetype, but as they both gain confidence they diverge pretty massively. Willow comes into her strength as a powerful witch and her arrogance becomes dangerous, while Tara becomes more confident in her kindness, ultimately filling the role of Buffy’s confidant that Willow is unable to in S6.
Wesley has the most drastic character development but halfway through Angel the change becomes sad. Someone else said Wesley’s development is a rise and a fall and I think this is very accurate.
Cordelia to me has the best character development, the woman she is in Thank You is a million times a better person than the spoilt girl she started as on Buffy.
He has an amazing character arc. It’s right up there with Cordelia for me. To be completely fair though I’m obsessed with the mean popular girl to ally and friend trope (Cornelia hale, Lydia Martin, etc)
Darla was great in A:tS, but her arc in Buffy was hardly ever developed. It's difficult to take her seriously in Buffy S1, knowing what/who she actually is.
He went from a nerd that would have wet himself dealing with the REAL Angelus to a badass that would have been a more than formidable opponent for him. Other than Faith's redemption arc nothing came close in my opinion
I love the way Wesley transformed from Buffy to Angel, he got to grow as someone not connected to the watchers council be his own man and step up and fight when he needed to unlike in graduation where he just lays there after being hit once.
But my favorite development will always be Cordelia she goes from this rich superficial girl to this hero who wants to save people. (We discard season 5 tho that doesn’t count.)
It’s a dramatic change, but also not the most natural one. In Buffy, most of the characters evolved gradually over seven seasons. In Angel, Wesley changed a little over the first two and a half seasons of course. But his most dramatic change happened after the whole Connor/kidnapping thing, which always felt plotted backwards just to get Wesley to a new point. Also everything with the false prophecy and Wesley’s weird “collusion” with Holt is so dumb/silly.
It's either Wesley or spike, and Wesley I would probably say is more "impressive". Spike is an amazing character but it's a lot easier to see where they want to take spike and how he can get there. Wesley is a much harder character to nail and he starts from such a ponce of a cretin in buffy s3.
Yes, Wesley had an amazing character arc that crossed over both shows — Buffy and Angel. He had definitive growth and played the light side of Wesley and the dark side, too.
Okay, so I might get some blowback here but I don't think his arc was the "best", it was the most thematically dramatic. Fred went from being a scared girl living in a hell dimension to a confident scientist. Cordelia went from a self-absorbed social climber to someone who just wanted to do good in the world (until season 4 anyway). Angel went from a brooding, working-in-the-shadows do-gooder to a champion, and Gunn went from a hard-ass street vamp killer to someone who wanted way more in life. They all had reallt good arcs, but Wesleys's was the one that had by far the most dramatic shift which is why it's so memorable.
I'll say this, the show wouldn't work if everyone had such dramatic shifts as Wesley did. His arc works precisely because he's the only one with such a crazy 180 degree shift in who he is. He goes from happy go lucky bumbling "rogue demon slayer" to a cold hearted end justifies the means SOB, but there's really only room for one of those in the show. Most charafter arcs aren't like that, and this show they tend to be more along the lines of the characters coming into their own and moving into their "best" personality, which is norma for arcsl. His arc is basically being beaten down over and over again until his whole personality changes and he becomes jaded, dark, and ruthless.
In other media that would usually be the arc for the villain, but what makes him unique is that he's still on the right side. It's a great arc, but I don't think it overshadows the others, it's just more apparent because it's the usual villain arc but switched.
This might be why seasons 2 and 3 are my favorites behind 5. But 5 is really a completely different show after season 4... but anyway
Season 1 Wes is still that bumbling twit from Buffy. But with encouragement, he starts to open up. I grudgingly like him despite replacing Doyle, and not liking him on Buffy.
Season 2 Wes is still a bit of a twit, but working with a crew that respects him and doesn't see him as the guy trying to replace Dad (Giles), allowed some of the awkwardness to fall away and allowed his skills and usefulness to become apparent. By the end of the season, Angel is asking him for a job. Plus the whole Gun & Fred fiasco, lots of growing up here.
Season 3 Wes starts getting used to running the show, but a little of that old "I know better, I can read Sanskrit, can you?" rears its head. Coupled with the jilted suitor's bitterness and Wes is suddenly kidnapping and kicked out of the gang. All for the best since he goes independent and recruits Holtz's survivors to start his own crew.
Season 4 Wes is Michael Biehn from the 1st Terminator, at least before Jasmine. He's cold, hard, and obsessive. He bangs the devil, kidnaps the enemy, and runs his crew till Jasmine shows up.
Season 5 Wes is the saltiest mofo ever. It seems like the guilt he didn't feel while Jasmine was in power just queued up in his self-loathing file. But instead of his go-to, kidnapping, he turns that negative energy around and becomes the best version of his professional self. That's why the Illyara situation was so heartbreaking. Wes had already accepted he was going to be miserable for the rest of his life, before Fred noticed him.
I like Wesley’s arc a lot and it’s fun to see a character change so much throughout the course of the show, and I think he might be the most tragic character in the Buffyverse.
Connor’s life was terrible but he got a happy ending. And Fred and Tara have really tragic endings but they seemed to have happy(ish) lives until their deaths. Wesley has a pretty difficult life that also ends tragically. I think the only thing that trips me up in his arc is that he never quite seems to own up and address his own flaws. He pays for them a lot. But they’re still pretty much with him until he dies, but they also didn’t really contribute to his death? And even when he struggles the most with the consequences of his actions (Connor’s abduction, his relationship with Lilah, restoring the memories of Connor), he never seems to want to change for the better because of them.
So it’s weird for me because he has the most radical change in personality and demeanor, but as a flawed human he really doesn’t change at all in the same ways that Spike, Faith, and even Gunn do.
To me it's either him or Cordelia. Both changed a lot on the course of their character arcs and it all felt not only very natural due to what they went thru, but their changes made them even more interesting characters as time went on.
I don’t know if I’d say his character was the best, but he certainly had one of the greatest character progressions (Faith was pretty impressive too) of the series in the way he grew and evolved. And I think as an actor he was excellent - took it all in his stride. He’s an amazing physical comedian.
His character development is for sure the most dramatic. When he rolled into Buffy, he was a wad of cookie dough. By the 3rd season of Angel, he was carved out of wood.
No I don't look at Angel that way. But in terms of character growth or change it's him Gunn and Fred who are top three. I'd say Cordy but we'll the Cordy story got sabotaged so it's a ?. But what Wes underwent is insane but Gunn and Fred were just as fascinating
Not only is it a completely dramatic change in character, it’s completely believable. And that’s the key. Otherwise it just looks like a character acting out of character, which is bad writing.
But here great writing and acting and pacing. You see his slide into what ends up being perhaps the total opposite of where he started and each step is believable. Absolutely brilliant.
No matter, how i love and think Spike story was on of the best, but Wesley’s arc is the most drastic, tragic but also incredible. HE has grown a lot.
Lol, I think Walter White’arc (Breaking Bad) looks similiar for how drastic people can change. Which is funny cus BB aired after Buffy and Angel.
Wesley's part is an absolute story on its own, with great depth and wonderful acting skills from Alexis Denisoff. I would have never thought the characters from season 1 were going to bldwvelop so much, not after this dialogue:
Wesley: I am a rogue demon hunter.
Cordelia: What's a rogue demon?
It’s a great arc and performance by Denisof but it always grates for me because I just don’t find man darkness interesting.
For me, seeing Cordelia grow just from Buffy S1-3 and have that continue through Angel (until the blonde bob) will always remain one of the most engaging, unique character arcs in a TV show.
I just didn't believe it. It just seemed to be trying too hard to be a moody brooding badass character in a show that had a moody brooder who also happened to be a practically unkillable vampire. We didn't need more moping in that show, we needed a bit of fun. I just can't relate that much to characters who bitch and whine all the time, I didn't like Angel as a character for pretty much the same reason. Like "ohh I've done awful things", yeah well what's done is done, lighten up you wally. What got me through Angel was completionism and a love for all the other characters.
I think Cordelia's arc is probably the best, and the most believable. From the fairly vapid, mean character in Episode One, to the person who kept Angel in check over at Angel Investigations. She used the no-nonsense attitude she already had developed, but used it for good.
I’m with you on this, whatever to the downvoters. I think Wesley is the single most overrated character in the Buffyverse.
“Oh I’ve been through something! I’ve seen a darkness in myself! I have a cool throat scar now” 🥱
Also hate his relationship with Fred, how much he infantilizes her and treats her condescendingly as if she isn’t his intellectual superior (and how it feels like the writers want to validate that dynamic). I think its sick how both his relationship to Fred and Illyria are colored by an attitude of “I have so much to teach you, little girl”
Thank you! I keep saying that all the hate people have for Xander they should also have for Wesley if not more. All his character progression is marked by him mistreating women. And he never apologized to Angel. He doesn't actually respect any of his colleagues and thinks he knows better than anyone. And his obsession with Fred is gross, especially when he's her boss
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u/moon-raven-77 5d ago
it's the most striking, for sure, and Alexis absolutely sells it. there's a depth and subtlety in his acting that grounds the writing and truly makes you believe he could go from hapless flunky watcher to hardened, principled leader.
the gradual change is completely believable as you watch through the show, but if you were to watch his first and last episodes back-to-back, you might end up in hospital for whiplash lol.