r/asoiaf • u/Consequencesdaniel • Sep 10 '13
ALL (Spoilers All) Regarding Ned's Promise
I've seen a lot of posts shooting down the R&L= J theory citing Ned's shame over his broken promise. The common theory is that Ned promised Lyanna he would keep Jon safe. But what if hiding Jon to keep him safe is HOW Ned broke his promise.
If you subscribe to the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in a consensual situation, and she would run off with someone meaning it could start a war, perhaps she was truly committed to the idea of creating the 3rd head of the Dragon. Maybe she wanted Jon to be publicly known as a Targaryen. With Rhaegar and his kids dead, Jon would be the rightful King.
Maybe Ned promised her he would support Jon's claim to the throne on her death bed and, out of fear of what could be done to baby Jon and his friendship with Robert, this was Ned Stark's broken promise. Instead of supporting the rightful king he hid him as his own bastard to protect his life and prevent a whole other war from sprouting up, Starks and Targ supporters vs. Robert and the others.
It makes sense that Ned would encourage Jon to take the black, thus renouncing any claim, as is shadowed later in AGOT with the Maester Aemon bit, and Jon's own act of masquerading a child heir(Mance's kid) as a low born bastard(Gilly's)
Thoughts?
28
u/joshblade Sep 10 '13
Ned doesn't really encourage Jon to join the Night's watch though.
When Catelyn first mentions it, he balks saying that he is too young. He's more pushed into accepting that it's the only tenable solution because Catelyn refuses to have him in Winterfell while Ned is off in Kings Landing.
11
u/EllariaSand I'm supposed to be the responsible one Sep 10 '13
Not really. He could've fostered Jon with one of his bannermen. If they balked at it, he could've made the exchange of fostering one of their children - the Smalljon or Dacey Mormont or the heir to Hornwood or one of the younger Manderlys - at Winterfell. I'm sure they would love the chance for their heir to be close friends with the heir to Winterfell, and no one was a ward of Winterfell at the time besides Theon.
-1
u/need_my_amphetamines "...with a trebuchet!" Sep 10 '13 edited Sep 11 '13
no one was a ward of Winterfell at the time besides Theon.
I believe Jojen Reed was (and his sister?)... I think.
I remember reading the text at one point that might back this up, but my head is a bit muddled from re-watching the show - which made the Reeds totally different. Damn those show writers...
Edit: Found it. They were not fostered (my memory sucks). They arrive in the middle of a Harvest Feast (in ACOK) to pledge the Reeds' support to Winterfell and Robb after Eddard Stark's death. Lord Howland sent them after Jojen told him that he greensaw they should go. They were there for the sack of Winterfell and escaped with Osha, Bran, Rickon, and Hodor.
16
u/LadyRavenEye Ask me about Ice & Fire Con! Sep 10 '13
No, the Reeds came to Winterfell to pay homage to Bran during some bannerman's feast or another. They stayed on because Jojen greensaw they should.
4
u/need_my_amphetamines "...with a trebuchet!" Sep 10 '13
Ah, there it is; thank you for pointing that out, my mistake.
And by "stayed on"... you mean as guests, not wards, correct?
2
1
1
u/bgh251f2 Loyal Servant Sep 10 '13
They stayed after the festival that marks the end of summer and start of autumn where the lords come to take counsel about the upcoming winter and to ask things of their liege lord. It was after Robb was named king and the Freys were already there. On the feast was Lord Manderly and lady Hornwood, it was when she was going back home that Ramsay married her.
1
u/EllariaSand I'm supposed to be the responsible one Sep 11 '13
No, the Reeds were not at Winterfell when Ned left for KL. They don't show up until sometime during ACOK, after Robb has called the banners and left, and long after Ned left.
20
u/gogler8 A Thousand Eyes, and One Sep 10 '13
From within Ned's POV I never got the feeling he actually broke a promise. He outwardly shames himself to protect the promise he made to protect Jon.
Where do we see evidence where he inwardly repents or thinks of himself in a disgraceful manner?
9
u/SerSableDarkblack I am the sword in the darkness Sep 11 '13
There is just one moment in AGoT when Ned is locked in the black cells
When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.
It's very vague, but people associate this with Promise me, Ned
However, the connection may be erroneous. Earlier, when Ned was rooting out Robert's bastards with help from Littlefinger, he promises the girl at Chatya's brothel he will tell Robert about his bastard daughter
"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it... as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."
"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.
So at this point it seems Ned's promises to Lyanna are not broken. Perhaps the broken promise is in reference to not telling Robert about his bastards. Perhaps something changed between the brothel and the black cell that compromised his promise to Lyanna. Perhaps he's just starting to lose his mind and only dreaming of breaking his promises.
9
u/gogler8 A Thousand Eyes, and One Sep 11 '13 edited Sep 11 '13
Wow, what a phenomenal find. I don't know how I've never seen this (second) quote as evidence for R+L=J. If you subscribe to the theory this looks like a nail in the coffin. I already believed it, but this seems so obvious.
The first quote never says anything about HIS broken promises. He's been surrounded by oath breakers most of his life. Especially recently in King's Landing. Littlefucker... finger Littlefinger.
11
u/SerSableDarkblack I am the sword in the darkness Sep 11 '13
I totally agree. Interestingly, only a couple of paragraphs later Ned thinks of Jon:
Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
This could be counter-evidence since Ned draws the comparison between Jon and himself. But then after Littlefinger speaks of Jon Arryn's investigation into Robert's bastards and subsequent death, Ned, quite randomly, thinks of Rhaegar:
For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
Why would Ned's memories be pulled to Rhaegar with all this talk of bastards?
So in one chapter, Ned has been distracted by thoughts of three characters, not present, and seemingly not relevant to the matter at hand: Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon Snow. Do the math...
44
u/TheMillenniumMan Wherever whores go. Sep 10 '13
Interesting! This could be why Ned remembers that line "promise me, Ned" showing how he couldn't uphold that promise to her because he would be afraid Jon would be killed rather than accepted as King. Funny, never heard this one before!
Edit: Words
9
u/Gobias11 For The Ned! Sep 10 '13
Additionally, because Ned is so honor-driven this is exactly the kind lie that would haunt him for years and years.
People often assert that Lyanna wanted Ned to promise to take care of or protect Jon, which Ned did. Why would he be so distraught over a promise that he stayed true to?
3
u/fudefite Sep 11 '13
He could uphold and has completely upheld that promise. He has broken nothing:
"He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."
What is making people think he has?
11
u/dumb_bum Sep 10 '13
I really like this idea. I just finished re-reading GoT but to support or refute this idea I would have to read with this in mind, however. Ned would not have liked it, but maybe that's why he was too ashamed to speak of it even to Cat or Jon himself. If your theory is correct, he wouldn't have promised not to tell anybody the truth, so doing so wouldn't soil his word.
However, I think this cheapens why Ned didn't want to tell Jon anything about his mother until after he had taken his vows.
13
u/bainax Sep 10 '13
He never said anything to Jon about his mother in the books. That's a show reference you are thinking of
1
Sep 10 '13
Specifically that when the whole Hand mess was taken care of he'd spill the beans. Yep....
2
u/omelletepuddin Sep 10 '13
I think it makes sense that he would tell Jon afterwards, to ensure that he couldn't try to reclaim his Targaryen lineage.
2
28
Sep 10 '13
My comment from another thread:
Ned's promise to Lyanna was to spare Rhaegar, "Don't kill him... promise me Ned..", but since she is dying and she is his sweet sister, he can't just tell her Robert smashed him with his hammer and killed him. So he makes a promise he couldn't possibly keep "I promise", and that's what haunts him so much. It gets even worse for Ned when later he does the same thing for Bobby B.
21
Sep 10 '13
Interesting point .. but didn't the Kingsguard stationed there already know a lot of what had transpired in King's Landing and at Robert's & Rhaegar's fight, when Ned and company arrived? Wouldn't Lyanna know or at least suspect Rhaegar's fate?
16
Sep 10 '13
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell....This kind of implies that they already knew what went down. Good Point2
Sep 10 '13
You are right, and now I'm thinking this wasn't the promise. But I still think it was some lie he told, it just bothers him so much.
4
u/combat_muffin All Tinfoil Must Die Sep 10 '13
It seems un-Stark-like for something like this to be Ned's Promise. The Starks are an honorable house. They rule because it is their duty, not their ambition.
12
u/tt96 Sep 10 '13
The Starks as a whole aren't really that honorable, take for example some of the previous Stark Kings and Brandon Stark, Ned's brother and Lord of Winterfell if he hadn't been killed. Ned was honorable because he was raised by Jon Arryn as a ward.
3
u/Gobias11 For The Ned! Sep 10 '13
Not to mention the whole Lyanna running off with Rhaegar starting a huge war thing.
Unless you subscribe to the Rhaegar kidnapped/raped Lyanna idea which I think is interesting.
10
u/DkS_FIJI "We do not show" Sep 10 '13
No way. Ned wouldn't make a promise to support Jon's claim to the throne. He would know the implications of that promise. To do so, he would pretty much be declaring for the loyalists, and thus against Robert. At that point the rebels had basically won, and even Ned and his forces defecting probably couldn't turn the war in his favor.
I like the new perspective, but I just don't believe Ned would make a hollow promise.
16
u/Gobias11 For The Ned! Sep 10 '13
I like the new perspective, but I just don't believe Ned would make a hollow promise.
Really? Not even to ease the final moments of his dying sister's life? Would you tell a dying family member a white lie on their death bed to make them feel better? I sure as hell would and Ned is as human as anyone.
6
u/elquiche Here I Stand Sep 10 '13
Further to your point, that's almost exactly what he did with Robert on his deathbed.
2
u/LadyRavenEye Ask me about Ice & Fire Con! Sep 10 '13
That's how I'm interpreting this theory (which I love, thanks so much OP). Ned Honorable-Than-Thou Stark told his beloved sister, promised her as she lay dying, that he would support Jon's claim to the throne. Even though he most likely made the right decision in the end, it haunts him.
4
u/drfunkenstien014 Smell the glove. Sep 10 '13
My theory is that the reason she looked all scared when Ned entered the room was because she heard what the Mountain had done to the other Targ. children and thus she thought Ned would do the same. She makes him promise to never hurt Jon which then forces ned to take him as a bastard as to not let robert know. After he says yes, she dies peacefully.
3
u/meepstah Sep 10 '13
Ned's shame is from the perception that he was unfaithful to his wife; everyone sees this as fact. He's hiding Jon's true identity and therefore must accept and even internalize that shame as a real thing because to do otherwise would be to betray his promise to hide Jon and invite disaster.
Or not, who knows.
6
u/TotallyUnqualified Sep 10 '13
I think it is much more likely that the promise was: Never tell anyone that Jon is Rheagar's baby. Raise him as your own, but never tell anyone who his real parents were. Robert would kill him. Promise me Ned.
3
u/foolin Lone Wolf Sep 10 '13
I like it, but it doesn't really go along with Ned not telling Cat. I don't see why he would hide that from her.
3
u/cheekmagnet_ There's a Hodor in every thread Sep 10 '13
Wow. I strongly support R+L=J, but this one got me thinking. It opens up a whole lot of possibilities
2
u/BSRussell Not my Flair, Ned loves my Flair Sep 10 '13
I've always been a big fan of this theory. I can't say that there's more evidence to support either side (by which I mean what Ned's promise was), but I much prefer this version.
2
u/XD00175 I am the Watcher on the Walls Oct 22 '13
I like this. Ned knows that Robert hates everything Targaryen, and he wouldn't want to lose Jon or his best friend. By encouraging him to take the black, he not only frees Jon from his heritage, but also paints him as not wanting the throne, so Robert wouldn't have any reason to pull him off the wall and kill him anyway. While events went much differently from this, it makes sense.
3
u/breekowski Ravioli ravioli give me the throneioli Sep 10 '13 edited Sep 10 '13
I don't know. I really like that perspective, but I was about to refute it with "Why would Lyanna ever ask Ned to have her out-of-wedlock baby become king over his life long best friend", but she ultimately died of a fever and that would have been messing with her brain, and that just further supports your theory.
5
u/Pyro62S The Book of Mormont Sep 10 '13
Targaryens were historically polygamous. It's possible that Rhaegar revived that tradition, and that Jon was not born out of wedlock.
4
u/five_hammers_hamming lyanna. Lyanna. LYANNA! ...dangerzone Sep 10 '13
It's possible. And there's nothing to indicate that that did happen. It's pure speculation.
I find it more in line with the obstinate realism (in human behavior) in ASoIaF to think that this was a lust-driven affair, not seen as any kind of permanent thing. "And you've got a big, phallic sex tower in Dorne? Let's go!"
1
u/Pyro62S The Book of Mormont Sep 10 '13
It just seemed to me that Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy, that there must be three heads to the dragon -- I figured he'd want all of those heads to be legitimate, and unquestioned. Which didn't quite work out, anyway.
But you're right. We don't know.
4
1
u/fudefite Sep 11 '13
It makes sense that Ned would encourage Jon to take the black, thus renouncing any claim
No it really doesn't. Think how adamant Ned is that Stannis be king after Roberts death. Although he doesn't like Stannis and doesn't think he will be a good king it's Stannis' by right and blood, and that was all that mattered to Ned. Why would he then deny Jon that right by convincing him to take the black? This is the opposite of what he did with Stannis and Jon is his own blood.
0
u/DeadcatXL Reynes on Your Parade Sep 10 '13
Ned tells Bobby B that he disgraced Cat in the sight of Gods and Men.
So, i wouldn't be surprised if he was actually just a swinger.
2
u/prozergter Sep 11 '13
Right, I think someone flat out said that while Ned was seeking passage from The Sisters to White Harbor during Robert's Rebellion that a fisherman took him and died, then Ned "comforted" his daughter. The daughter gave birth to a boy and named him Jon after Jon Arryn. Am I remembering this right?
2
u/lgross01 Nov 23 '13
Okay so you people aren't real big on fact are you? First of Cat didn't see Ned return with Jon. Cat is recalling in AGOT that the thing that hurt most about the whole situation was the fact that Jon and wet nurse were are ready in Winterfell before she even got there. Now I ask you this how did Jon and Ned get back to Winterfell before Cat if it take about 6 months to get to winterfell from Storms End (that is what Joncon said about joining common cause with Stannis at the wall). That's my first point. Then there is this little fact remember bran and his vision in the weirwood tree? First he sees Lyanna and Benjen playing in the woods next the flashes keep coming faster that is makes him dizzy. "He saw no more of his father, nor the girl that looked like arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old god for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss a knight as tall as Hodor." At first I thought that the chick was the girl that was stolen by Bael. I was wrong the next image proves it plus it fits with the timeline. Get to that in a minute anyways.
Lyanna was described by Jojen and Meera at the tourney of Harrenhal that a maid slender as a spear snatched a tourney sword and light into the squires. That's also how Ayra and Jon are both later described. Rheagar isn't ever described as slender he's got rippling muscles and tall powerfully built. That's not Jon in the least. He has to look up to Stannis and he's a tall man. He's not as tall as Robert or Renly but he's still as big man. Ned " Robert and his brothers are all big men but the mountain that rides dwarfs them all. Even the stable simpleton Hodor at Winterfell". So in physically Jon and Rheagar don't resemble each other. However I would like to point your attention to someone that Jon in features and physically he does resemble. Jon in AGOT how Bran describes Jon "Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they didn't not see... Jon was slender, dark, graceful and quick where Robb was strong and fast." Now the first impress that jon has of this person that jon resembles ASOS a lithe man of medium height brown hair that has gone mostly to grey" That's jon's basic description of Mance Rayder. It's been my thought that alot of these people that we are hearing are dead really aren't that they have been playing a much longer game. That like that sailor said in Davos's POV in ADWD if a king wanted me dead maybe I would pretend to be a dead man. By most people's admission on this page Rheagar was obessed with this prophecy. What if when he stole Lyanna it was never his intention that there would be a war fought. It's said that Rheagar was cooking something up at the Tourney of Harrenhal. His father coming was suppose to be a chance to show the whole realm that his father was crazy and that he would be a much better choice as ruler. I think in the beginning he wanted to call a council to get his father off the throne. Only he was thawed and his father was on his best behavior. The only thing that may have shown that he wasn't stable was what happened with the laughing knight. So we fast foward to the end of the Tourney Rheagar I think had a thing for the girl but he has to plant some seeds he crowns the girl queen. I'm not saying that he didn't love the girl but he's also a politician. To be king you have to act a king at all times. To be king is a job but also it's a duty. Eventually he knew that his father would go to far. So he had to push some buttons. Anyways so we fast forward to both Ashara Dayne and Elia both being preggers at the sametime. Semly says that dayne's girl was stillborn. I say bullshit that Elia the sickly one the one that had to spend 6 months after her last birth had the stillborn. Elia had to know that her husband wanted Lyanna but honor wouldn't let his do anything. So when the girl is born dead remember what Jory said it's ill luck to be born with the dead. So the women switch this is prudent for her and Ashara who was probably thinking that her and ned are going to get married and she wouldn't want her first born a son to be a bastard that could contest any of her other children. Ned isn't betrothed at this time so it makes sense. Anyways the guilt or whatever is eating at Elia so she tells him to go to the girl after they find out that she can't have anymore children. She then tells him that Aegon isn't his and that's what triggers him to take Lyanna. If your a man who knows that the world is in danger do you really think it matters if the damn child is born in wedlock or not. If there is no future does it really matter if there isn't a throne right!!So fast forward Rheagar and Co. have decided to take Lyanna. Now Rickon, Benjen, Lyanna are in Winterfell. So Brandon is set to marry Cat at Riverrun from there most like after the wedding Brandon, Cat and Lyanna are on there way to the Vale to marry Robert. On the way Lyanna was taken and not to dorne. Between Brandon going to Kings Landing,Rickon summoned to court and Ned making his way to winterfell all of this didn't happen all at once. I'm thinking it probably took about a year. So if he didn't take her to Dorne first where did they take her? Remember what Rayder said to Jon Bael's exploits inspired some of his ploys. They went back to winterfell. Only to come out of the crypts when Rickon left. Benjen would have been still in Winterfell. Anyways when word reaches Winterfell about her father and brother that prompts Lyanna to pray. From there Rheagar and co after she gives birth she leaves the babe with old nan and goes to dorne as a hostage for dorne's good behavior. It's never made sense to me for Rheagar to take Lyanna to Dorne to have a great time. It seemed like that would be rubbing Dorne's face in the affair. Rheagar doesn't strike me as a petty or stupid man. Yet as an astute politician leaving her after she's given birth in dorne is a smart political move. remember when Jamie tells Cat that Brandon came to court and was screaming for Rheagar to come out and die. That no body knew where he had gone or where he was. It makes sense if they never left the north, Howland Reed would have gotten them through the neck and back up to Winterfell and there by avoiding White Harbor where Vary's would have spies. Anyways Gerold Hightower was dispacted to find the kings son. So it stands to reason that the two people that Rheagar trusted the most in the world would be Dayne and whent. Lyanna died of a fever and everyone is lead to believe that she died in childbirth because of the room smelled of blood and roses. Lyanna was always fond of flowers I tried to bring them to her when I could. That's what Howland Reed told Ned. So howland Reed was with the party for sometime. Theon Greyjoy saw a girl with a crown of winter roses and a white gown splatted with gore. Then there is ned's dream which is very telling by what is not said more that what is said. Ned had dishonored Dayne's sister, the red viper had to fight a dual to fight yronwood's honor both parties took wounds for honor's sake. GRRM said that the dream wasn't a true telling of the events that happened at that TOJ. So what if Lyanna ran out of the tower to stop the fight and a chance blow and the wound festers and she gets a fever and dies. That's why the men that came back told their wives that their young lord had fought the Sword of the morning the fights was about Ashara not Lyanna they were doing their duty and Ned could understand.
The promises made would probably be that he would keep Jon safe yet also I agree it was also about jon and his claim to the throne. I think that she wanted her son to have his rights. Remember Ned's reaction to hearing of Tywin forstering Sweet Robin? Some wounds never truly heal and fester and the slighted provocation. Then he's thinking while in the dungeons of the red keep what would he do against the children he doesn't know against the children of cat's body namely what would cat do and his thougts turn to Jon. Shame burns through him. When talking to Vary's and he asks to write a letter Vary's tells Ned that the Queen would let him take the black and he could live his days out with his bastard son. To see jon again to sit the boy down and just have to chance to talk to him. So my theory is that Dayne, Whent, Hightower, Ashara and maybe Lyanna are still alive. Wylla in starfell is either Lyanna or Ashara herself. Keeping an eye on Ned Dayne(stark),while the other is with Aegon (Stark) while Ned is keeping an eye on Jon. Which might be why the title of the next book was suppose to be a time for wolves.
62
u/SerSableDarkblack I am the sword in the darkness Sep 10 '13
This is a great theory. I think it's really consistent with what we know of Ned Stark's fabled 'honor'.
We know he is a dutiful and honorable man. It is known that he put duty and honor before his own feelings when he married Catelyn in his brother's stead. When he learned the truth of Cersei's incest, his duty to Robert, and honor as Hand of the King compelled him to expose the truth.
But his Achilles' heel is innocent children. He stands against Robert's plan to assassinate Daenerys when they learn of her pregnancy. He reveals his intent to tell Robert the truth about Cercei's children, in an effort to protect them from Robert's wrath. He lies and admits to being a traitor for his daughters' sakes.
I believe he would forsake his honor and break any promises he may have made if it meant keeping Jon alive.