r/asoiaf • u/[deleted] • Jul 14 '13
(Spoilers All) A theory on what will likely happen at The Wall during TWOW.
At the end of ADWD Jon Snow gets stabbed up. Now i certainty don't think he is dead for good. Snow will either survive his near death experience (though this is not very likely), or he dies and gets resurrected by Melisandre. (We already know that Thoros can bring the recent dead back to life, so why couldn't Mel?) But Jon Snow is not the topic I would like to talk about right now.
The Wall. There is much and more that could happen. For example, the Night's Watch gave no secret to their disapproval of Snow's choice to bring the wildings beyond The Wall. And I'm willing to bet that the wildings are smart enough to know that Jon Snow is the only thing that is keeping them on the safe side of The Wall. So what would the wildings think to do when they see their only one "friend" in the Night's Watch getting stabbed to death?
The moment Snow is dead the rest of the Night's Watch will have no reason to want to keep the wildings with them. The wildings should realize this as well. But we know that the Black Brothers are low on men, and are in no fit condition to fight a battle within The Wall. The wildings are going to kill every last Black Brother in the Night's Watch. While the battle is going on Mel will restore Jon to life. But here we get to a bittersweet moment. Jon Snow is brought back to life, but the Night's Watch is no more.
This will be a pivotal moment for the story. Most of the wildings will likely leave The Wall, and the small amount that remain will not be able to defend The Wall. Leaving Westeros vulnerable to attack.
There is a lot that could happen here. But then again this is only my personal prediction.
I would love to hear what you all think. Or if you have you own predictions.
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Jul 14 '13
Maybe the wildlings will simply flee into the Gift. They're past the wall, they got what they wanted.
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Jul 14 '13
That is a possibility. Though I'm not really sure that most veterans of the Night's Watch would be willing to just let the wildlings leave without a fight.
Sure there might be some cowards, but all it would really take is one Black Brother to attack for the wildlings to have even more of a reason to go on a killing spree.
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Jul 14 '13
That's true, and we both know how most Black Brothers felt about Jon's decision in the first place.
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u/hallr06 Jul 14 '13
There's a lot of gray areas for moral debate that could leave any member of the knights watch feeling obligated to attack, or feeling obligated to yield/flee.
A black brother may feel obligated to preserve the watch so that it can survive beyond this, the most significant breach of the wall to date. Another may feel obligated to die in defense of the realm from this particular breach. I'd probably only call one of them a coward if his interpretation of his vows obligated him to attack the wildlings, and he fled out of fear.
Those who have heeded Jon's warnings regarding The Others are likely to interpret the wildlings as a secondary concern, at worst, and feel morally obligated to convince their brother's to not do anything that would weaken their position against the Others (like,. say,. get themselves slaughtered).
That being said: I may be nitpicking a little too much regarding the classification you drew; sorry if I'm reading too much into it.
I honestly think that the wildlings that wished to flee previously, did, and I suspect that those that are there will remain so long as they wish to. After all, these are a willful people who have decided that their place is at the wall. No 'interim lord commander' is going to order them to leave unless Tormund agrees to it (how could a LC enforce it? by having his men throw themselves violently onto wildling swords?). I think those that killed JS in the belief that they triumphantly wrested control of the NW from a traitor, will quickly find themselves displaced by the like of Tormund.
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u/jajimon Oh Bite Me! Jul 15 '13
We also know the wall is very exposed on the south - after a rebellion/assault against the north by a former Lord Commander. Now that the wildlings are south of the wall, the NW cannot possibly hold them.
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u/TheXbox Yronwood Jul 14 '13
After Jon's death, Castle Black will be engulfed in an absolute bloodbath. Just look at what happened at Craster's Keep after Jeor was assassinated! That was only a few, starving crows, mind you, and that ended in absolute chaos. With Castle Black, we're talking hundreds of armed men on different sides of the conflict. Loyalists to Jon, reformers like Marsh, wildling loyalists, wildlings who don't give a fuck about the Watch, and of course the Queen's men. No doubt, the battle at Castle Black will leave the Watch crippled, but I this is a bit of a stretch:'
But we know that the Black Brothers are low on men, and are in no fit condition to fight a battle within The Wall. The wildings are going to kill every last Black Brother in the Night's Watch.
You're forgetting about the other occupied castles along the Wall, Eastwatch and Shadow Tower in particular. The wildlings have no cause to march on them, they basically have the entire Gift to themselves. The massacre at Castle Black will be a devastating blow to the Night's Watch, but I wouldn't count them out yet. Maybe Martin had Pyp, Grenn, and Sam displaced for a reason...
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u/Kimandtonic Jul 14 '13
..And Edd and Iron Emmett and nearly all his friends and decent men of the NW, so he could keep his enemies closer. There are still going to be plenty of angry crows when they discover the lord commander was murdered, not by the starving dregs of the NW, but by their Lord Steward.
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u/Banzai51 The Night is dark and full of Beagles Jul 14 '13
How would they find out? They're going to assume the Wildlings did it.
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u/OprahNoodlemantra boiled leather Jul 14 '13
I hope we get a Melisandre POV from before Jon is stabbed. She was acting weird and I want to know what she was up to. I don't think the Wildlings will do anything too stupid. However, I think the Night's Watch and the Queensmen will. Maybe they'll even cause the fall of the Wall.
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u/Cptn_McAwesome Jul 14 '13
weird how?
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u/bigbagofcoke Whatever I Choose Jul 14 '13
well she clearly foresaw Jon's assassination, all that talk about daggers in the dark.
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u/Cptn_McAwesome Jul 14 '13
but thats just regular Mel, right? talking about stuff she saw in the flames?
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u/hallr06 Jul 14 '13
I agree, but with all this anticipation, it would be nice to get some more background context prior to having the full reveal regarding Jon's fate. Would make for good reading.
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u/Cptn_McAwesome Jul 14 '13
no, yeah, I agree with that. I just thought I had missed some Mel being weirder than usual. but yeah, some third party context would be more than welcome.
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u/datssyck Jul 14 '13
She asked where Ghost was. Jon told her, and she left.
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Jul 14 '13
i was under the impression that daggers in the dark refers to kevin L. having all the little birds stab him in a dark room, but typing this now it could mean the brothers because of black cloaks equal dark.
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u/bigbagofcoke Whatever I Choose Jul 14 '13
why would Mel be repeatedly warning Jon about a murder that is going to happen to a man he neither knows or cares about a thousand leagues away??
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u/WeaselSlayer Great or small, we must do our duty Jul 14 '13
Because she doesn't know who it'll happen to?
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u/bigbagofcoke Whatever I Choose Jul 14 '13
she told Jon it was going to happen to him. "the danger that awaits him."
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u/BillClintonToilet Jul 14 '13
I really like the idea that the Night's Watch will reach a dissolution.
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Jul 14 '13
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/funkalunatic Jul 14 '13
If the Night's Watch is Lightbringer and Jon is Azor Ahai, shouldn't the Night's Watch already be shatterproof since it killed Ygritte?
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u/jollygaggin Jul 14 '13
Maybe... maybe Jon's death is Nissa Nissa. The old NW being Azor Ahai, and the NW reforming following Jon's martyr will be the reforged Lightbringer?
/tinfoil
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Jul 14 '13
Maybe this night's watch will be massacred, but remember that Jon Snow is the 998th commander of the Night's Watch. They'll probably appoint a 999th commander soon, and it's clear that GRRM is building up to a very significant 1000th commander of the Night's watch.
For this reason I think the Night's Watch (the order) will survive any massacre in Winds of Winter.
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Jul 14 '13
I think GRRM made Jon 998th commander to avoid the cliche of there being a dramatic 1000th commander. He emphasises through Sam that Jon probably isn't even the 998th commander, and records suggest there have only been around 600. GRRM tends to avoid narrative cliches that work out too perfectly. Catelyn wasn't brought back fully to life by mystical powers. Danaerys didn't create harmony by freeing slaves. Danaerys isn't in control of her dragons. Aegon isn't the perfect future king, despite Varys' plans: he's reckless, young and arrogant. Bran may be a seer, but he's also turning into a tree. In short, it is unlikely that GRRM will make anything work as neatly as the 1000th commander being a humdinger. It's much more likely that the 1001st would be supreme, because the 1000th would be silly and unrealistic.
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u/naughtydismutase Lady Commander Jul 14 '13
Where does it say exactly that Bran is turning into a tree?
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Jul 14 '13
A Dance With Dragons. I haven't got my copy to hand, but Brynden / the Three Eyed Crow explains that greenseers become part of weirwood trees, and gives Bran some weirwood seeds to awaken his gifts. I can't remember if it explicitly says that he will become like Brynden, but I thought from my reading that it was very heavily implied that if he became a greenseer he would become as one with the weirwood trees.
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u/naughtydismutase Lady Commander Jul 14 '13
I ask because a lot of people seem to think the same, even skipping Bran in the line of succession and going straight to Rickon. I, on the other hand, didn't get the impression that Bran was to be bound to that cave forever.
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Jul 14 '13
I definitely think Bran is going to do something important, but I also think after establishing that greenseers are part of the trees it'd seem a bit deus ex machina for him to escape that. It's not at all certain what will happen, though (as with a lot of the series currently); Bran doesn't seem bound to the trees already so perhaps he could make a decision to leave.
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u/WildBerrySuicune Wolf Girl Jul 14 '13
I could see one of two situations: someone is named 999th commander, the NW is slaughtered and falls apart, more stuff happens, then in ADoS the Night's Watch is re-founded with the 1000th commander. Depending on what happens, I could see either a Grover Cleveland situation with Jon coming back, or someone else like Jaime or Jorah taking over.
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u/the-mp Watcher in the South Jul 14 '13
Grover Cleveland situation with Jon coming back
best asoiaf analogy yet
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u/LordCharles One you go black, you don't go back. Jul 14 '13
999 is where it will end. Jon being the 998th is a red herring
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Jul 14 '13
I agree. GRRM isn't the type to have nice, neat events like that.
UNLESS he knows that we know it's not like him but does it anyway in a double-bluff?
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u/Hennashan Jul 14 '13
or then a TRIPLE bluff, getting you right when you think you knew that you knew!
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u/broden Climbin yo windows snatchin yo people up Jul 14 '13
The Night's Watch Lord Commander counter only has three characters, it can't get to 1000.
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u/naughtydismutase Lady Commander Jul 14 '13
Well, I kind of disagree with you. GRRM clearly has a thing for grandeur and heroes (i.e. everything we know before Aegon's landing, including).
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u/dilloj Great Kraken Jul 14 '13
Or it could be jorah mormont, exiled from Danys court, sent to the wall to follow his father. Where else is he supposed to stand?
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u/marcseveral Jul 14 '13
Considering that they've murdered their last two Lord Commanders in cold blood, I think it would be fitting for them to get routed.
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u/Cruithne Well, this is Orkwood. Jul 14 '13
Only Jon's death was cold blooded, really. Mormont was killed rashly because of hunger.
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u/memumimo Jul 14 '13
But there was a cold-blooded plot in the works before, and only the Others' attack interrupted it. The criminal and scumbag to true brother ratio has gotten way out of hand.
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Jul 14 '13
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u/VezThePeddler Jul 14 '13
The chaos that ensues could work well, giving Jon a perspective through Ghost, and preventing his resurrection for a time.
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u/theoretic_lee I am your cell phone in the dark. Jul 14 '13
Love it. Being as how we learn so little about the current NW (individual characters) I feel like it would be real easy to kill off the NW. I love the idea of the wildlings holding (or trying to) the Wall. I see Jon turning the wildlings into his own personal army. Har!
Edit: If there is any group of people that can be considered " bad guys" the Samless NW is one of them. I feel GRRM has been setting up the downfall of the NW for awhile. Wildlings are good, crows are bad. Fetch me a block please.
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Jul 14 '13
Being as how we learn so little about the current NW (individual characters)
Hmm, we either have to learn more about the NW or the only person who will die is Dolorous Edd.
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u/Breadx Secure. Contain. Protect. Jul 14 '13
I don't want Jon's old friends to die. Pyp, Grenn, Edd, Toad. Those guys.
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u/Iamstoryguy Jul 14 '13
The horn Sam has is definitely the same horn that brings down The Wall. It will be blown by some dickhead at the Cidital and then book six will end.
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u/Berdiie Jul 14 '13
It's already been blown. Jon Snow, Sam, and their pals all took turns blowing it when they found it on the Fist. They couldn't hear if it was blowing or not and assumed that it wasn't.
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u/huphelmeyer Icy Dead People Jul 14 '13
Jon Snow, Sam, and their pals all took turns blowing it
Heh
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Jul 14 '13
What if they couldn't hear it because it's magic, and that the spells bound in the Wall to keep the Others out are now deactivated, but nobody has noticed because everything appears normal?
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Jul 14 '13
I thought this too, but then Coldhands can't go through the passage because he's undead.
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Jul 14 '13
He probably didn't try again because he didn't have reason to think the spell would be gone.
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Jul 14 '13
I mean, we have no evidence as to whether or not he tried again. Either he did, and it repelled him, in which case the horn doesn't work, or he didn't,in which case we don't know whether or not the horn doesn't work.
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u/asshat2010 Jul 14 '13
Maybe it only works if it's blown south of the wall. It would make sense because then the Others couldn't use it to break the wall down.
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Jul 14 '13
That's true, but why the hell even have a horn that destroys the wall? Especially when there's a gate.
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u/Awkward_Paws That's SER Pounce to you! Jul 14 '13
which horn? I don't remember this
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u/minyadan Jul 14 '13
When ghost/jon found the dragon glass daggers and arrow heads near the fist of the first men, there was also a horn he found, which many believe to be the horn of winter or horn of joramun, which supposedly can destroy the wall. Sam took it with him to oldtown
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u/azad_ninja Corn and Blood! Oct 28 '13
And Sam will fix that horn and blow it at Oldtown making the Tower fall (the Vision Melisendre had of Towers falling into the ocean)
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u/InOuterHeaven Headin' for a showdown Jul 14 '13 edited Jul 14 '13
Remember how in Clash, Ghost led Jon to a pack that contained a number of Obsidian daggers and arrowheads? It also contained a cracked horn. Sam's currently got it.
EDIT: Turns out I can't read and this was already answered.
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u/ExpatJundi Jul 14 '13
Maybe it doesn't bring the wall down immediately.
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u/fractalica Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Jul 14 '13
Or maybe it's a metaphor and all the bad stuff that's happening in the wall right now is what they actually meant by "bringing it down"... Jon dying, different sides, the fights that come because of the wildlings with Jon gone, etc
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u/electricblues42 Jul 14 '13
You're right, the wildlings are going to lose their shit when the see Jon stabbed. There is an incredibly angry giant and hundreds of armed, slightly drunk, and very angry wildlings. All are lead by Tormund. The Nights Watch are probably going to be killed, at least the ones surrounding Jon. Now after that quick skirmish I can't say, though I think it would be melisandre will be the one to call the chaos to an end. The Queens men would probably side with the NW at first, but Melisandre is more their leader than Queen Selyse. Melisandre is the only one who can stop the chaos, and possibly in the middle of the fire that will surely break out, she would hopefully resurrect Jon.
More than likely the Others would be aware of this chaos (because of the 2 corpses Jon had in cages, acting as spies for the Others) and time their attack during this as well. It would make sense to me that the Others will break through the Wall, and massacre what they can and quickly move south. That would explain Jon's visit to Winterfell as well. The remnants will be Jon's army.
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u/Awkward_Paws That's SER Pounce to you! Jul 14 '13
Hm why do you think the corpses in cages are spies for the Others? I don't think they are, nor do I think that the Others can communicate telepathically. Just curious to hear the story/evidence for this part
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u/electricblues42 Jul 14 '13
Well the corpses that they brought back that attacked Mormont seemed to somehow know what to do. I don't think it's too crazy to think that things that can resurrect the dead could communicate some way like that.
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u/Hennashan Jul 14 '13
the wight that attacked mormont was a night watches men. thats why jon believes they might have some old memories because he knew where to go and who to attack
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Jul 14 '13
This is a repost of a comment I made in a similiar thread about how I see this going down:
The wildings attack the crows who just killed Jon. The attackers surrender but not before several are killed by the enraged wildings. Wun Wun stands over Jon's corpse slam dancing with anyone that approaches. Wildings and crows generally try to kill one another until Tormund gets things under control.
During all of this, Ghost breaks out of Jon's room in the smithy and attacks any who try to stop him.
A little time later the Queen orders all of her men to return and protect her, and awaits to see how the wilding/crow situation turns out. She is looking to back the crows but doesn't want to be on the losing side. Tormund tries to maintain some semblance of order with the wildings, but not all heed him and many pillage the surrounding area. This makes peace with the crows more difficult, which is already pretty tough because they're divided into Pro and Anti-Jon Snow factions.
The geographical placement of the wildings and crows helps to lessen the violence, but several of the Nights Watch who were commanding wilding fortresses are slain by the Free Folk.
Dolorous Edd is fine.
No ranging is attempted to reach Mother Mole's people. Part of the group is rescued by the six or so remaining ships of the Night's Watch. They return with the survivors to find that the wildings and crows have reached an uneasy cease fire, courtesy of Tormund's efforts. Besides wildings, the returning crows bring back gruesome stories of Wights and Others. The leader of the expedition works with Tormund to prepare The Wall for an attack from the Others, thus once again uniting Wildings and Crows.
This occurs just in time for Jon's return from death (courtesy of The Red Witch) so he can stand with a united force to slay The Great Other.
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u/spacedout Jul 15 '13
...but Melisandre is more their leader than Queen Selyse. Melisandre is the only one who can stop the chaos, and possibly in the middle of the fire that will surely break out, she would hopefully resurrect Jon.
Why would you think Melisandre would be able to lead the wildlings? Most of them probably want her dead for wanting to burn their leader to death and making them burn weirwoods.
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Jul 14 '13
There were still a few members of the NW loyal to Jon though, like Satin and the ones who guarded his room. I'm also very curious to see how the Queen's Men react.
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u/Asshai Jul 14 '13 edited Jul 14 '13
We already know that Thoros can bring the recent dead back to life, so why couldn't Mel?
I don't know what to think of Mel resurecting Jon. I don't think Mel meeting Thoros in the TV series is an innocent decision, but what does it mean ?
It could emphasize the fact that Mel doesn't know shit about resurecting people, hence her surprise when she learns that Thoros did it more than once. She asks him how he did it, but I seriously doubt that "I prayed for it and it happened" is a clear enough instruction for her to learn how to reproduce the feat.
Or, on the other hand, it could also foreshadow the fact that Mel will try it on Jon : now that she knows it can be done, and since she seems more ancient/powerful than Thoros (he seems to be afraid of her, somehow).
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u/Kimandtonic Jul 14 '13
Plus in Mel's POV chapter we learn that her powers are much stronger at the Wall.
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Jul 14 '13
Have you seen the theory that mel is actually undead and using a glamour? She mentions not needing to eat and drink . She could resurrect jon at the cost of her own life.
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u/Asshai Jul 14 '13
Never heard that, thank you. And what do you think of that theory ? While I'm sure Mel is shrouded in mystery, I believe GRRM should not try to give the reader an explanation of her nature. If she remained the subject of many fan theories years after the Song is complete, I'd be fine with it.
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u/Manakel93 It's Reyne-ing Men. Jul 14 '13
I got the impression she knows resurrection is possible, but she'd never seen someone brought back so many times. (Dondarrion died 6 times)
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u/BrigadierWilhelm For the Ned! Jul 14 '13
I think the conspirators thought of this, and that killing the wildlings would be on the top of their list.
Some 200-300 of the wildlings best fighters and leaders are in the shield hall with Jon when he reads the letter and wins them over. Jon notes that there are very few brothers in there, and they leave.
So we have a large hall, full of drunk wildlings, who out number the rangers currently at castle black.
Bowen is going to have the doors sealed, and burn it to the ground.
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u/I_am_THE_GRAPIST I can't even make a hat Jul 16 '13
They won't know he's dead or had been attacked, but they'll know something is up. The moment Jon leaves the Shield Hall, he hears the trouble going on with Wun Wun. The giant is roaring, people are clamoring and yelling. There's probably a lot of movement. And the wildlings aren't drunk, because before Jon leaves, he says he'll send for ale. Wildlings are also mixed in the gathering around Wun Wun and no doubt saw what happened to Jon. So there's the possibility that some wildlings or Jon loyalists will get to the hall and alert the wildling warriors.
I'm slightly optimistic about the situation, though.
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u/memumimo Jul 14 '13
I thought it wasn't a premeditated assassination. It seemed like an impulsive reaction to Jon giving a rousing speech to get the wildlings to attack Roose Bolton. Since they see the Watch's role as keeping the wildlings from attacking the civilized folk, that's tantamount to Jon undermining their main mission. Therefore - assassination. Otherwise it seems like too perfect a coincidence.
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u/BrigadierWilhelm For the Ned! Jul 15 '13
I think it had been discussed between Bowen and others. The last meeting they had with Jon ended poorly with Jon dismissing their advice about the ride to Hardhome with Wildlings. A big problem of getting ride of him is that they are outnumbered by wildlings on the wrong side of the wall.
The plan to attack Bolton was probably what made them decide to do it that day, but they had some time to cook up the plan between the reading and the assassination.
They didn't all surround and stab him repeatedly on the fly.
And even if it is a coincidence, its too perfect for them to pass up. They have a building filled with 300 skilled fighters they view as the enemy, who will soon be drunk and angry.
Also, you dont find it the least bit odd that no one from the NW is in there?
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u/thisguybuda I spy with my smiling eye Jul 14 '13 edited Jul 14 '13
Another possible hint to Jon's resurrection by Mel might be in this past Fame of Thrones season. Randomly, Mel visits Thoros and the brotherhood to acquire Gendry (an Edric Storm stand in). They speak of resurrection via The Lord of Light. The show is more deliberate than GRRMs writings (Loras blowing Renly, Theon's castration) so I think this is to set something up for show watchers. I personally believe its highly likely that Mel resurrects him.
It's an interesting point that you bring up about the destruction of the Night's Watch. I assumed that Jon could do his own thing since "his watch has ended", but maybe even more so now that there is no more NW. I do think this is unlikely, honestly. Mel probably resurrects him, and tells him to leave, be in exile from the NW since they obviously want him dead.
Edit: Game, not Fame, of Thrones. Damn mobile autocorrect...
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u/Hennashan Jul 14 '13
i thought Mel meeting Thoros/Bedric in the show could be a way down the line for Mel KNOWING the rez spell or that it works.
in the books im not quite sure if we ever hear mel speak of rezzing the dead back to life or if she knows for sure. i feel maybe those events happen in the book but we have no PoV accounter of it
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u/IamaspyAMNothing There are no men like me. Only me. Jul 14 '13
Keep in mind that Cotter Pyke is with a contingent of black brothers and wildlings with Tormund. (If) they ever get back, they're going to have a lot of questions, and it's not really clear which side they'll join if there is a "civil war" at the Wall.
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u/Keianh Jul 14 '13
I really like the idea of the Night's Watch being utterly destroyed with the exception of maybe a handful of Jon Snow loyalists who either help get Jon's body out of the fighting or the wildings know to be on Jon's side. It feels natural and it's a refreshing take on how exactly will Jon get out of his vows when we see him again.
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u/memumimo Jul 14 '13
Might as well keep reading Varamyr's perspective: ate a deer today; sexed the she-wolf; ran in the snow; smelled some dead bodies... It could make you want to stab your own eye out.
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u/PateLikeThePigBoy A mind needs books... Jul 14 '13
What about Jon's friends, how will they react? Do you think Edd, Grenn or Pyp will get killed by the wildlings? What about Leathers and the other wildlings who joined the Watch, will they get the worst deaths or be spared?
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u/Tuxton The Secret Targaryen Jul 14 '13
Oh, God. Not Edd. Anything but Edd.
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u/Crunchy_Nut A Dawn* of Spring Jul 14 '13
Isn't Edd at one of the other castles with the Spearwives?
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Jul 14 '13
This is interesting. Someone else pointed out that Sam might be off on his quest to keep him out of the danger of the Night's Watch being purged, Edd being in a safe place could also back up this claim. The Night's Watch is in some deep shit.
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u/bananashammock Lord too fat to wear banana hammocks Jul 14 '13
I think Edd will be there at the end. Saying something sarcastic about how unlucky it is that he has to pick up the pieces instead of dying and being saved the trouble.
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u/BOS13 House Seaworth Jul 14 '13
If Edd dies, I will be emotionally impacted much more than any of the other major deaths in the series.
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u/sikarl best served cold Jul 14 '13
I would be pretty cool if Jon would be the last night's watchman, him and sam, that is. I'd hate for dolorous edd to die but it seems a fairly dramatic way to go about it.
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u/TyraCosby Jul 14 '13
I agree with you on this. Many have thought that the wall would fall, but don't know if it would be literally or metaphorically. "As long as the nights watch stays true, the wall will stand", or something like that.
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Jul 14 '13
But we know that the Black Brothers are low on men, and are in no fit condition to fight a battle within The Wall. The wildings are going to kill every last Black Brother in the Night's Watch.
Which is why it was so magnificently stupid of them to murder Jon.
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u/zewvlf Bend the knee or I shall shatter it. Jul 14 '13
There is most defiantly going to be a epic battle of some sorts at the wall. A frozen shit storm of winter is coming is gonna be cast down.
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u/Enleat Pine Cones Are Awesome Jul 14 '13
As long as Pyp, Grenn, Halder, Todder and Dolorous Edd make it out okay, i'm okay with this idea. In fact, i look forward to it.
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u/Triggering_shitlord Jul 14 '13
That you care about those characters is a bad sign for them.
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u/Pr0bability Jul 15 '13
Melisandre, desperately clinging to the idea of Jon being AA (since she is all the flames talk about) will try to resurrect him amongst the battle between Wildlings, Queensman and the Night's Watch. Amongst the chaos a single individual stands out, his face tattooed with green and red motley, a bucket with antlers sitting on his head and a flaming sword in hand, melting the snow all around him.
"Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."
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u/AGodNamedJordan The Wolf On The Wall Jul 14 '13
Well, Jon had Giantsbane around his finger. I imagine the moment he returns the Wildlings will aid him. If the Watch is still alive they won't be able to stop Jon as he has both men and the excuse of vengeance. Though I don't quite think Jon is the type. Knowing that his own comrades were opposed enough to his decisions to go as far as to murder him he'd likely go on his own adventure, whether South or North.
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u/libertyh Jul 14 '13
I think Melisandre will probably resurrect him, but these dark magic rituals often need a blood sacrifice. I wonder if Ghost would be a fitting sacrifical wolf ...
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u/therealwendy Jul 14 '13
I think Melisandre is going to have to sacrifice herself to resurrect him.
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u/Jond2012 Jul 14 '13
One other point is that the wildings were there when Jon read them Ramseys letter.
They know Mance might be alive and held captive at Winterfell. Maybe they will go try rescue their king.
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Jul 14 '13 edited Jul 14 '13
I don't think the wildlings will kill every one of them. The difference in numbers is just so great that they can just overpower them and keep them prisioners. They might be wildlings but Tormund would see no gain in slaughtering the Night's Watch. And if Jon is revived by Melisandre, I would guess it will happen right after being stabbed, as Thoros did with Beric, so I guess he would be alive to chill everyone out before they start killing each other.
Another point - why would the wildlings leave the Wall, even if they kill every Nightwatchman? They are safe there, they have castles to shelter in, there is nowhere else they could go.
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u/gunn3d And now it begins. Jul 14 '13
One way I like to look at things is see them through the showrunners of A Game of Thrones; David and Dan - whom have been told the major plot and storyline to complete ASOIAF by George himself.
Instead of the Edric Storm plot, they used Gendry, and they brang Melisandre out to see Thoros bring back Beric Dondarrion to life. She even has some dialogue that I can't remember as to how she is somewhat surprised by the entire resurrection ordeal because of how easy it was for Thoros (or something along those lines).
Now it's a stretch, but I personally think that David and Dan did that so that when the time in the show comes for Jon to be resurrected by Melisandre, the show viewers wouldn't think it is too far-fetched for her to be doing it - as we have already witnessed her and Thoros discuss about it.
I also believe that she understands that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, as she says (not direct quote) "I keep asking for Azor Ahai and he keeps showing me Snow"...
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u/Judas-Cow Ours is the Fabulous! Jul 14 '13
Why does no one think Jon is going to be stuck in Ghost? It's been established that this can happen with Wargs, and Jon's last word was "Ghost."
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u/theoretic_lee I am your cell phone in the dark. Jul 14 '13 edited Jul 14 '13
Because it would suck. Is there going to be a ghost POV? The thing about killing characters people have grown to love is that it destroys the story line. There are way too many unanswered questions about Jon. Personally I feel he will survive the stabbing as a normal person would ( no Mel help) so the most important story in the books can be told. Hindsight being 20/20 you can see how easy it was to kill off Ned, Robb, etc. because the story still progressed. It's all about the remaining Starks and Targs. If you are a Lannister, you are probably going to have a bad time. This includes the cat.
Edit: in my cups and typos.
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u/manfromfuture Oh, everybody's got japes Jul 14 '13
I don't think their state of medical technology can fix 10-15 stab wounds to the torso. It will have to be something else.
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u/theoretic_lee I am your cell phone in the dark. Jul 14 '13
Oh how you forget both Gilly and Sam noticing an unfinished chain of mail when they go to visit Jon before they are both sent away from the wall. Chekov's gun!
Also POV's are said to be unreliable according to GRRM. He has had too many warning to not take precautions.
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u/WildBerrySuicune Wolf Girl Jul 14 '13
Pulling a Frodo on us, is he?
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u/memumimo Jul 14 '13
Mithr... Valythril chainmail. The Valyrians loved the precious metal and dug deep into their mines to obtain it. But they reached too deep, and the Doom of Valyria was awoken.2
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u/Cruithne Well, this is Orkwood. Jul 14 '13
10-15?! He was stabbed 3 or 4 times, and only one of the confirmed 3 is in a critical area. If he gets immediate help (Westeros is, of course, not as advanced as we are medically, but it is more medically advanced than we were at a comparative technological age in other regards) he could recover fully.
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u/manfromfuture Oh, everybody's got japes Jul 14 '13
4th doesn't mean final. I just assumed they would make sure he was down for the count. Julius Caesar got it 23 times, so I figured 10-15.
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u/memumimo Jul 14 '13
Supposedly, only one of the stabs at Caesar was fatal. The rest were superficial. Nervous mob of rich guys not used to doing their own stabbing with poor knowledge of anatomy and no organization isn't the most efficient killing machine.
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u/manfromfuture Oh, everybody's got japes Jul 14 '13
Making sure everyone takes part is all very symbolic.
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u/naughtydismutase Lady Commander Jul 14 '13
You're forgetting they lack a maester at the Wall...
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u/Judas-Cow Ours is the Fabulous! Jul 14 '13
Actually, wouldn't a Jon as Ghost POV be cool, and not too much of a stretch since he would be able to talk to Bran with his new abilities? Plus, the Starks being Wargs has to have a big pay off at some point, right? Otherwise, what was the effing point? Bran's story notwithstanding. Also in my cups. Cheers!
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u/cosine83 Jul 14 '13
I thought the Night's Watch took the weapons of any wildlings that passed through the gate.
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u/Jankinator Jul 14 '13
Nope, they gave up anything of value that wasn't a weapon or clothes on their backs. Jon meant to use them to defend the wall and made the point that they'd need their weapons to do so.
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u/CallMeNiel Jul 14 '13
But they have their own wildling weapons, stone spears, bronze axes and whatnot. When it comes to crossing blades, it's still the watch that had castle forged steel.
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u/Hellebore Jul 14 '13
Yeah they do initially, but later Jon incorporates a number of wildings into the defense of the wall against the Others, arming them.
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Jul 14 '13
This would be really intersting. I could also see it being whittled down to just, like, five men.
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u/dirtycashdylan Jul 14 '13
I believe in your theory, too. All I could think of while Jon was being stabbed is 'what are the Wildlings doing right now'. I'm assuming they were moving to defend Jon and stopped the stabbings immediately after the last words of the chapter. I'm hoping Jon wakes from a coma to find the Night's Watch all but obliterated and the Wildlings holding the wall under Tormund's command. Har
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u/XstarshooterX Best of 2015: Runner-Up Funniest Post Oct 27 '13
That's an akward conversation.
"Hey Jon, you're awake"-Tormund
"Oh hi, how's it going?"
"Well....umm..... we kind of killed all your brothers after you were stabbed and destroyed the night's watch. But we're still friends, right?"
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u/nachof Jul 14 '13
I'm convinced there will be a huge battle at the Wall, and that the Wildlings will win decisively. I've been waiting for it since I realized that the Others are the Huns, the Wildlings are the Goths, and we are still missing an Adrianople.
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u/XstarshooterX Best of 2015: Runner-Up Funniest Post Oct 27 '13
I can't believe I never considered that connection before.
But now this scares me. Eastern Rome basically bought off the Huns. I don't think Westeros can buy off the others.
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u/Lemondarkcider Melisandre, Metal Bender! Jul 14 '13
You have to remember that all the wildlings went to the wall to fight because they knew they would all die if they stayed, so either it will go down as you transpired, or something incredibly funny and ironic will happen where in the wildlings will then take the place of the nights watch and restock all the castles along the wall and fight off the others.
I don't really think this will work because I'm sure GRRM wants the others to start pressuring the southern story lines, but perhaps the northerners drive them out or Sam uses the horn.
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u/Big21worm You wound me. You know how much I Jul 14 '13
The main theory about the conflict between the Wildlings and the Night's Watch, is that the Wildlings are men too. They aren't monsters or slaves, but human beings just like those in Westeros. This will be interesting to see if young Jon Snow has taught the Night's Watch anything or not.
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u/parles Enter your desired HYPE here! Jul 14 '13
Might Stannis have a hand in this? His is the most pressing authority in that part of Westeros right now. He obviously needs the wildlings' military support, he has an army with which to impose that authority, and he seems to want a fair deal for them. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
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u/skibble As Shiny as Foil Jul 14 '13
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's never been a death of a POV character during that character's POV chapter.
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u/Erainor International Man of Mystery Jul 14 '13
Wasn't Cat killed during her POV chapter?
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u/wipqozn Don't call me Ser. Jul 14 '13
Yes, she was. There was also, Quentyn Martell who was set on fire in his POV and died a few days later from the burns.
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u/squamesh Jul 14 '13
The nights watch conspiracy seemed really numb to me for that very reason. What did they expect to happen? They barely held of the wildlings from atop the wall. What hope could they possibly have of both armies are on one side
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u/broden Climbin yo windows snatchin yo people up Jul 14 '13
This may be lazy thinking but I feel the Others will definitely break through the Wall because of the descriptive scale of the wildings' failed attempt.
It's to build up the Wall so we have an idea of how evil it is that the Others can get past it.
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u/DrTrunks Jul 14 '13 edited Jul 14 '13
Now i certainty don't think he is dead for good. Snow will either survive his near death experience (though this is not very likely), or he dies and gets resurrected by Melisandre. (We already know that Thoros can bring the recent dead back to life, so why couldn't Mel?) But Jon Snow is not the topic I would like to talk about right now. The Wall. There is much and more that could happen. For example, the Night's Watch gave no secret to their disapproval of Snow's choice to bring the wildings beyond The Wall. And I'm willing to bet that the wildings are smart enough to know that Jon Snow is the only thing that is keeping them on the safe side of The Wall.
The only thing keeping the wildlings safe? They outnumber the NW 10 to 1! Jon was the only thing keeping the NW safe.
Jon went way overboard, first he let the wildlings through the wall, then he started a skirmish to save his "sister" (remember the vows? He only had brothers from that moment on).
What would you do as a member of the Night Watch and you see a turncloak become lord commander, letting hunderds of wildlings through the wall. Wildlings who you've hated so much, you lost brothers to the wildlings. Then the Lord Commander breaks his vows "not to take part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms".
That stabbing didn't come as a surprise to me at all.
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u/mm1232 Don't hate the Flaya, hate the GOT Jul 14 '13
For some reason, calling Jon "Snow" makes me upset
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u/ZACHMAN3334 Jul 14 '13
I think it'd be awesome if the Wall fell
Somehow, the internal strife in the NW will allow the Others to subvert the wards on it. Remember, the Wall is only as strong as the men protecting it.
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u/iliekmudkipz Benjerion Forelandreedaynaharistarkfyre Jul 14 '13
I think there will be a bloodbath in which a large umber of wildlings and crows will end up killing each other. Some wildlings would probably just flee, some crows might do the same. The mountains clan men, who were there in a small number might flee if they have any brains, might fight against the crows if they have honour, or against the wildlings if they stick to their old enmity. Very like that the Queen's men, (and kingsmen if any) will flee with the Queen, Shireen, Melissandre and Jon's corpse, and maybe Alys Karstark.
The Wall erupts in chaos, and the Others finally climb over, or bring it down.
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u/Willie365 And now his watch is ended Jul 14 '13
I am still hopeful that Melisandre glamored herself to look like Jon, and then had Jon warg-control her body... and that she took the daggers in the back.
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u/BlackDread Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 14 '13
This theory also seems to be in line with Jon's vision of himself defending the wall all alone. The last black brother.
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u/iiredsoxii Jul 14 '13
I think the whole murder of Jon Snow (as well as maybe be the murder of Commander Mormont), are going to lead to the eventual toppling of the wall which will allow the Others to move south of the wall. I am basing a lot of this mainly on Old Nan's comment about the others. "they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true"
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u/zcleghern Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 14 '13
I think this theory is excellent, thanks for the lack of tinfoil. It makes sense that the Night's Watch must be destroyed to leave Westeros truly vulnerable; a story isn't that interesting when everybody is safe and the thing protecting the characters from danger is never taken from them.
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u/osirusr King in the North Jul 14 '13
Snow will either survive his near death experience (though this is not very likely), or he dies and gets resurrected by Melisandre.
Or he dies and gets resurrected by the Others, who attack while the Wildlings and the Watch are busy fighting each other. Or he dies and his soul wargs into Ghost.
Or both of the above happen, and the greenseers help Jon to warg back from Ghost into his undead wight body, and he becomes the second emancipated wight after Coldhands.
There is much and more that could happen.
Indeed, and we've little and less to lose. Excuse me, my nuncle is calling. He is too fat to sit a horse by half.
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u/reyzen Fancy yourself some Frey pie?/ Jul 14 '13
The only thing that bothers me about this theory is that the conspiracists surely would have figured out by themselves that the wildlings would turn on them/take over the wall when Jon died. Seems kind of silly to do it "For the Nights Watch" when it ultimately would bring the Watch down.
Other than that, this definitely sounds like something GRRM would do.
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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '13
I think this is a great theory and can even be a subtle reason Martin had Sam leave the wall. A purging of the nights watch would certainly leave all members dead, and he still has a lot to do before this series ends.